Someone would ask me where I am from and I would then answer with some hesitation that I'm from Singapore, or at least, my family is in Singapore.
I say with some hesitation as it is a slightly complicated story as to how I am from Singapore but now working in KL.
I was born in KL, Malaysia but then moved down to JB when I was around 6 with my family. When I was about 11, my family then moved down to Singapore where all of us then became Permanent Residents there, but still holding on to our Malaysian passports.
Very soon after my 'A' levels, I was called up to do National Service in Singapore. All 2nd generation PRs (ie. my parents were PRs, so I was a 2nd gen PR) had to serve NS. I promptly made the decision that I would drop my Singapore PR to avoid having to do 2 1/2 yrs of NS and I would pursue my university education in the UK.
I had always planned to return to Singapore to work so after 4 years in the UK, I returned in the summer of '04. I obtained pupillage at a large Singapore law firm and I was about to start my DipSing at the local university in Singapore. All UK law grads had to go through this DipSing conversion course to get us used to Singapore law. It is very much a waste of 1 year but anyway, problems started to arise.
I would need to have a student pass in order to commence my DipSing, and it was compulsory for me to complete my DipSing before I could do my pupillage and get Called to the Singapore Bar. However, my student pass application was rejected by the immigration department which I found very odd. I had already secured my place at the university and I had always assumed a student pass would more or less follow automatically.
I had to go down to immigration to speak to the officers where I was advised to appeal for a review of the application. I soon found out that the fact that I was a PR before and because I evaded NS, was the reason for the rejection of my student pass application. I wrote a sob story letter hoping that they would allow my student pass. The law firm also wrote a letter in support of my appeal and I also got the local Member of Parliament to write a letter.
Those were anxious times. By the time immigration had rejected my student pass, around 4-5 weeks had already passed since I first applied for the student pass. I had found it strange that my other non-S'porean friends had already gotten their pass approved. These things normally would be processed in less than a week and could all be done online. My DipSing programme had already started and I couldn't enrol for any of my tutorial classes.
So now, I had to nervously wait for the result of my appeal. I started attending lectures at the university so that I wouldn't lag behind. I was literally checking my mailbox every single day (and sometimes twice a day) for the letter from the immigration department. At that point, I still felt that my pass would be approved in the end. I mean I had the letters, I was assured employment by way of pupillage right after my studies, and maybe the Singapore immigration just wanted to make me sweat a bit before finally relenting.
I hated being in that situation where I woke up every morning thinking about whether the decision had been made. Whether the letter would finally arrive today. Whether the appeal would be successful. Nearly every single waking thought would be tainted with this worry gnawing somewhere in the background. I tried to just keep myself occupied but the 'highlight' of each day was waiting for 2pm when the mail would be delivered, and then I would walk down and open the mailbox, only to find that the letter had not arrived yet.
Well, the day did finally arrive. I opened the mailbox and there was the white envelope. That whole sequence of events is still very clear in my head. I ripped open the envelope as I walked into the elevator. There were just a few simple words printed on the white paper:
"After taking into consideration all relevant circumstances, we are sorry to inform you that your appeal for your student pass application has been rejected."
Although there was always a likelihood of this happening, it still hit me quite hard. At that very instant, I saw my entire future in Singapore evaporate. I was pretty much in a daze as I walked back into the flat and then quickly called up my dad to tell him of the news. I didn't feel angry or sad, I didn't feel any need to vent any frustration, I just didn't quite feel anything at that moment. Perhaps some feeling of relief that the torment of not-knowing was finally over. I had been frustrated that my life seemed to be at a crossroads before that point in time, and that the decision as to where my life was headed was completely out of my hands. That frustration was at leastover. The path in Singapore seemed blocked off and the important thing was to consider what options I had.
I still had the option of serving NS in Singapore and while that would not get me my PR back automatically, that would get me my student pass. That was what was conveyed to me by the immigration officer when I went to the immigration department numerous times. 2 1/2 years of NS, and then add on another 1 year for the DipSing course, and then 6 months of pupillage as well as 6 months of PLC, which is another compulsory course which teaches all students the practical aspects of law practice. That was not an option for me, so for now, the path here in Singapore had reached a dead end.
Examining my other options, I pretty much had one option left, and that was to go down to KL to practice. I had no idea what working in Malaysia would be like. Half my life was already spent in Singapore, nearly all my friends were Singaporean, I went through the Singapore education system, and the worst thing of all, my Malay is atrocious! But Malaysia was the best option for me at that point. I had taken my Bar in the UK so that would exempt me from any sort of conversion course in Malaysia. While my Malay was bad, at least I had taken Malay as my second language all my life and I could at least read and speak.
I am very surprised at myself as to how quickly I adapted to the thought that now my life was headed in a different direction. I was going to Malaysia to live and work on my own. I did not mope about or feel frustrated that my life had taken such a different turn from what I had expected. I viewed my future with optimism and with a little bit of excitement actually. It might be easier to shine in Malaysia compared to my future in Singapore. I would just be one among hundreds of similar individuals whereas in Malaysia, I could really try to carve out my career.
The most pressing concern at that moment though, was that I had only a matter of days left in Singapore. I had spent nearly 2 months in Singapore already by then, and I had been staying in Singapore on a social visit pass. I would only be allowed to stay a maximum of 2 months out of every 3 months, and after that, I would be chucked out. The student pass fiasco had dragged on for nearly 2 months and I just had around a week to sort out everything. I think it's awful how my application was handled. Fine, Singapore has a policy whereby ex-PRs who try to come back to work in Singapore, are black-listed. I'm not faulting Singapore on having such a policy. But come out and be transparent about it. Instead, my application was allowed to drag on for more than a month, and then rejected, and then I was informed to appeal in the vain hope that my application would be approved. Let me sweat it out for a few more weeks, then reject me again. That pisses me off.
I now had to quickly find a job as well as a place to stay in KL. KL was a totally foreign place to me, as I left when I was so young, and I had only gone back to visit like 3 times or something. I managed to arrange an interview at one law firm in KL and was going down that weekend to scout out for an apartment to rent and then attend the interview on Monday. Nothing like putting all your eggs in one basket eh? =)
There was no way I would have gotten through that period without my parents. They were so supportive of me and encouraging, and my dad was going to have to take some leave to drive me down that weekend to help me look at apartments and then be there for me as I went for the interview. I loved the first set of apartments I viewed and settled on one apartment. It was a great studio apartment and was near my potential office as well. I somehow cleared the interview and was lucky to be offered pupillage at the end of the interview. So I had 9 months of pupillage to complete in Malaysia and then I would be a full-fledged lawyer. Right after the interview, we contacted the property agent to sign the rental agreement and then drove back to Singapore that Monday itself.
I just had those few days to pack my things and say my goodbyes, and that following weekend, my dad drove me down for me to start my new life. Needless to say, those few days were chaotic. So many things happening all at once. The last time I am going to gripe, but again, if I had been informed earlier about the decision, I would have had more time to sort everything out. I was just plain lucky that I managed to get my pupillage in Malaysia as well as getting a nice apartment.
I moved down to KL that weekend and on Sunday, my dad said goodbye to me as he walked out of my apartment and the door closed behind him. I was now truly living on my own. The excitement very quickly died down that weekend. I had explored the facilities in my apartment block and looked at the shops and eating places downstairs. My brand new desktop computer was set up but with no internet connection at that time. The cable TV was my sole source of entertainment. I just felt really alone during those few days. Work was only starting on the Wednesday, and I had no car, and anyway, didn't know any area or place to go to. I didn't really have any friends in KL, only 1 or 2 friends from Bar school. Depressing.
But things dramatically improved once work started. It was a slow first day, and it felt a little bit difficult to make new friends. But things did improve very quickly. There was always something new to find out, or to learn, or to just chit-chat about at work and I quickly made new friends at work. All of that helped a lot in settling me in. I remember there were a couple of mood swings during the initial first few weeks, and I am a person who never gets mood swings. Just a few bouts where I felt slightly depressed and lonely. I needed the company of family or friends, and I was severely lacking both at that time. That was just the initial phase and as you can see, I've been really busy with social activities over the past few months. So things did work out for me in KL.
My plans for the future? Well, after completing my pupillage, I am going to continue to work here in KL. There is some chance of me trying to get back to Singapore as Malaysian practitioners can get admitted to the Singapore Bar after a while, so I will need to work in M'sia for some time anyway and I do enjoy the work and life in Malaysia. There will still be the issue of immigration black-listing me, so even if I do get a job in Singapore, that doesn't mean that they will grant me an employment pass. I'll have to see what happens.
So, that is the detailed explanation as to how I ended up in KL. A record long entry.
Added on 30/11/2010: Do have a read of my follow-up post.
I say with some hesitation as it is a slightly complicated story as to how I am from Singapore but now working in KL.
I was born in KL, Malaysia but then moved down to JB when I was around 6 with my family. When I was about 11, my family then moved down to Singapore where all of us then became Permanent Residents there, but still holding on to our Malaysian passports.
Very soon after my 'A' levels, I was called up to do National Service in Singapore. All 2nd generation PRs (ie. my parents were PRs, so I was a 2nd gen PR) had to serve NS. I promptly made the decision that I would drop my Singapore PR to avoid having to do 2 1/2 yrs of NS and I would pursue my university education in the UK.
I had always planned to return to Singapore to work so after 4 years in the UK, I returned in the summer of '04. I obtained pupillage at a large Singapore law firm and I was about to start my DipSing at the local university in Singapore. All UK law grads had to go through this DipSing conversion course to get us used to Singapore law. It is very much a waste of 1 year but anyway, problems started to arise.
I would need to have a student pass in order to commence my DipSing, and it was compulsory for me to complete my DipSing before I could do my pupillage and get Called to the Singapore Bar. However, my student pass application was rejected by the immigration department which I found very odd. I had already secured my place at the university and I had always assumed a student pass would more or less follow automatically.
I had to go down to immigration to speak to the officers where I was advised to appeal for a review of the application. I soon found out that the fact that I was a PR before and because I evaded NS, was the reason for the rejection of my student pass application. I wrote a sob story letter hoping that they would allow my student pass. The law firm also wrote a letter in support of my appeal and I also got the local Member of Parliament to write a letter.
Those were anxious times. By the time immigration had rejected my student pass, around 4-5 weeks had already passed since I first applied for the student pass. I had found it strange that my other non-S'porean friends had already gotten their pass approved. These things normally would be processed in less than a week and could all be done online. My DipSing programme had already started and I couldn't enrol for any of my tutorial classes.
So now, I had to nervously wait for the result of my appeal. I started attending lectures at the university so that I wouldn't lag behind. I was literally checking my mailbox every single day (and sometimes twice a day) for the letter from the immigration department. At that point, I still felt that my pass would be approved in the end. I mean I had the letters, I was assured employment by way of pupillage right after my studies, and maybe the Singapore immigration just wanted to make me sweat a bit before finally relenting.
I hated being in that situation where I woke up every morning thinking about whether the decision had been made. Whether the letter would finally arrive today. Whether the appeal would be successful. Nearly every single waking thought would be tainted with this worry gnawing somewhere in the background. I tried to just keep myself occupied but the 'highlight' of each day was waiting for 2pm when the mail would be delivered, and then I would walk down and open the mailbox, only to find that the letter had not arrived yet.
Well, the day did finally arrive. I opened the mailbox and there was the white envelope. That whole sequence of events is still very clear in my head. I ripped open the envelope as I walked into the elevator. There were just a few simple words printed on the white paper:
"After taking into consideration all relevant circumstances, we are sorry to inform you that your appeal for your student pass application has been rejected."
Although there was always a likelihood of this happening, it still hit me quite hard. At that very instant, I saw my entire future in Singapore evaporate. I was pretty much in a daze as I walked back into the flat and then quickly called up my dad to tell him of the news. I didn't feel angry or sad, I didn't feel any need to vent any frustration, I just didn't quite feel anything at that moment. Perhaps some feeling of relief that the torment of not-knowing was finally over. I had been frustrated that my life seemed to be at a crossroads before that point in time, and that the decision as to where my life was headed was completely out of my hands. That frustration was at leastover. The path in Singapore seemed blocked off and the important thing was to consider what options I had.
I still had the option of serving NS in Singapore and while that would not get me my PR back automatically, that would get me my student pass. That was what was conveyed to me by the immigration officer when I went to the immigration department numerous times. 2 1/2 years of NS, and then add on another 1 year for the DipSing course, and then 6 months of pupillage as well as 6 months of PLC, which is another compulsory course which teaches all students the practical aspects of law practice. That was not an option for me, so for now, the path here in Singapore had reached a dead end.
Examining my other options, I pretty much had one option left, and that was to go down to KL to practice. I had no idea what working in Malaysia would be like. Half my life was already spent in Singapore, nearly all my friends were Singaporean, I went through the Singapore education system, and the worst thing of all, my Malay is atrocious! But Malaysia was the best option for me at that point. I had taken my Bar in the UK so that would exempt me from any sort of conversion course in Malaysia. While my Malay was bad, at least I had taken Malay as my second language all my life and I could at least read and speak.
I am very surprised at myself as to how quickly I adapted to the thought that now my life was headed in a different direction. I was going to Malaysia to live and work on my own. I did not mope about or feel frustrated that my life had taken such a different turn from what I had expected. I viewed my future with optimism and with a little bit of excitement actually. It might be easier to shine in Malaysia compared to my future in Singapore. I would just be one among hundreds of similar individuals whereas in Malaysia, I could really try to carve out my career.
The most pressing concern at that moment though, was that I had only a matter of days left in Singapore. I had spent nearly 2 months in Singapore already by then, and I had been staying in Singapore on a social visit pass. I would only be allowed to stay a maximum of 2 months out of every 3 months, and after that, I would be chucked out. The student pass fiasco had dragged on for nearly 2 months and I just had around a week to sort out everything. I think it's awful how my application was handled. Fine, Singapore has a policy whereby ex-PRs who try to come back to work in Singapore, are black-listed. I'm not faulting Singapore on having such a policy. But come out and be transparent about it. Instead, my application was allowed to drag on for more than a month, and then rejected, and then I was informed to appeal in the vain hope that my application would be approved. Let me sweat it out for a few more weeks, then reject me again. That pisses me off.
I now had to quickly find a job as well as a place to stay in KL. KL was a totally foreign place to me, as I left when I was so young, and I had only gone back to visit like 3 times or something. I managed to arrange an interview at one law firm in KL and was going down that weekend to scout out for an apartment to rent and then attend the interview on Monday. Nothing like putting all your eggs in one basket eh? =)
There was no way I would have gotten through that period without my parents. They were so supportive of me and encouraging, and my dad was going to have to take some leave to drive me down that weekend to help me look at apartments and then be there for me as I went for the interview. I loved the first set of apartments I viewed and settled on one apartment. It was a great studio apartment and was near my potential office as well. I somehow cleared the interview and was lucky to be offered pupillage at the end of the interview. So I had 9 months of pupillage to complete in Malaysia and then I would be a full-fledged lawyer. Right after the interview, we contacted the property agent to sign the rental agreement and then drove back to Singapore that Monday itself.
I just had those few days to pack my things and say my goodbyes, and that following weekend, my dad drove me down for me to start my new life. Needless to say, those few days were chaotic. So many things happening all at once. The last time I am going to gripe, but again, if I had been informed earlier about the decision, I would have had more time to sort everything out. I was just plain lucky that I managed to get my pupillage in Malaysia as well as getting a nice apartment.
I moved down to KL that weekend and on Sunday, my dad said goodbye to me as he walked out of my apartment and the door closed behind him. I was now truly living on my own. The excitement very quickly died down that weekend. I had explored the facilities in my apartment block and looked at the shops and eating places downstairs. My brand new desktop computer was set up but with no internet connection at that time. The cable TV was my sole source of entertainment. I just felt really alone during those few days. Work was only starting on the Wednesday, and I had no car, and anyway, didn't know any area or place to go to. I didn't really have any friends in KL, only 1 or 2 friends from Bar school. Depressing.
But things dramatically improved once work started. It was a slow first day, and it felt a little bit difficult to make new friends. But things did improve very quickly. There was always something new to find out, or to learn, or to just chit-chat about at work and I quickly made new friends at work. All of that helped a lot in settling me in. I remember there were a couple of mood swings during the initial first few weeks, and I am a person who never gets mood swings. Just a few bouts where I felt slightly depressed and lonely. I needed the company of family or friends, and I was severely lacking both at that time. That was just the initial phase and as you can see, I've been really busy with social activities over the past few months. So things did work out for me in KL.
My plans for the future? Well, after completing my pupillage, I am going to continue to work here in KL. There is some chance of me trying to get back to Singapore as Malaysian practitioners can get admitted to the Singapore Bar after a while, so I will need to work in M'sia for some time anyway and I do enjoy the work and life in Malaysia. There will still be the issue of immigration black-listing me, so even if I do get a job in Singapore, that doesn't mean that they will grant me an employment pass. I'll have to see what happens.
So, that is the detailed explanation as to how I ended up in KL. A record long entry.
Added on 30/11/2010: Do have a read of my follow-up post.
123 comments:
Wow, Leesh, that was some tear-jerker!! But just so you know, you are a blessing to have at Skrine.. This is despite how you are a major reason for my depleting supply of mentos :) Cheers sweets..
whatever reason it is; or how the story may come about; it sure is nice knowing u! see...kl isnt that bad after all.
Sorry, I removed the above 3 comments to protect the names of the authors. =) They were ex-Singapore PRs as well
Hi, I'm a M'sian and PR in S'pore. Thanks to your revelation, I'ld know better now once the time comes for me to advise my son whether to do NS or not. It seems now the roadblocks are getting quite clear once you quit being a PR here and wants to return later to work/study. Take care.
I'm glad to hear that some of the restrictions seem to be removed.
My parents and I never knew of the trouble I would go through by me dropping my PR. Back then, the thought of leaving S'pore permanently would have been a daunting one, and most likely would have dissuaded me from renouncing my PR.
I am very fortunate that things worked out for me in the end, and that I had such supportive parents every step of the way. There is a whole world out there. =)
yea, i know another fren with a ditto case. Hez in japan now with the company who tried so hard to get him an employment pass. Tatz life. Maybe itz a blessing in disguise.... i'm sure you'll appreciate it some day. Cheerz!
Ms_G
Darn, I wish citizenship was as easy to drop as PR (of course, then, there would be the problem of being stateless).
Spent two bloody years feeding the darn mosquitoes. HATE THIS STUPID COUNTRY.
Hihi,
I came across this entry after typing selected keywords on google :p. Sighs, I am a Singapore PR on the verge of 18...well we all know what that means! I'll prob be renouncing my PR start of next year but I am very worried how my decision would affect the PR status of my parents and siblings (both girls, thankfully). Would the relevant authorities revoke their PR status?
Sorry if this post seems abrupt :$
Would really hope to hear the experience of someone who has tread the path that i intend to take...:)
Hi troubled. From my experience, you don't have to worry about it affecting the PR status of your parents and your siblings. My parents are still holding on to their PR-ships with no problems.
I had a younger brother who didn't experience any problems when I renounced my PR, and he too later renounced his PR.
I have heard of other ex-PRs who manage to still get an employment pass to work in Singapore, albeit working in the civil service.
I am thinking of applying for work in Singapore in the future. Will have to see if my employment pass application gets denied.
Best of luck!
Hi Leesh,
Thanks for your prompt reply :)! I do feel more relieved now! I just hope there hasn't been any change in regulations recently :p!
All the best in ur application for your singapore employment pass! I guess one day...i too will want to come back, after all I do have a lot fond memories here. Will just have to see how things work out then ^^!
And thanks again :)
Hi Leesh
I have read about your entry.
i am also a Malaysian, with a Singapore PR studying in Singapore now. i will be serving my NS next year. But i would like to renounce my PR in order not to serve the NS. I would not want to waste the 2 years in NS.
I was also thinking after i renounce my PR, i would like to apply for a work pass to work in singapore.
I am afraid after renunciation, i am not able to return to singapore to work or study.
Have been fret over NS issue here.
Hope to hear from you soon =)
Hi chong
I can't really predict what the immigration policy is like now. But i am guessing that it is likely that Singapore will reject your application for an employment pass.
However, like I said above, I have heard of ex-PRs who do not have problems getting an employment pass.
I haven't looked back since I renounced my PR and hit the stumbling block of getting my student pass getting rejected. I may try to apply for work in Singapore and if Singapore rejects my application for an EP, so be it.
Best of luck for your future. I am sure you have weighed up all the pros and cons before coming to your decision to drop your PR.
A quick update. I just heard on the grapevine, friends of a friend, who are also ex-PRs, had their employment pass application rejected as well. A similar offer was extended, in that do NS and we may consider letting you work in Singapore.
So looks like the possibility of heading back to Singapore to work is bleak.
Dear Leesh,
I was just wondering if I could get some learned advice from you.
Similar to you, I was holding a Singapore PR and decided to give it up in order to aviod doing NS.
Like you, I went overseas ie Australia, to read law and I will graduate at the end of the year.
All along I thought I had three options to consider, (i) Gain admission here, apply for an Australian PR and try to get a job here, (ii) get admitted here and do pupilage and eventually practice in East Malaysia as I was born there and (iii) get admitted in Singapore and work there(probably not going to happen after reading your post).
As much as I would like to stay here, finding a job as a lawyer in the legal industry here in Australia is not easy as there are heaps of law graduates. I have not heard of any international students thus far getting jobs at law firms here.
At the same time, the state of affairs in Malaysia seem to resemble a circus. ie, the political situation and the state of the judiciary, NEP etc.
As a practising lawyer, if you were in my position, what would be your couse of action? East Malaysia or slug it out with the best in Australia, (probably will have to continue washing dishes as a job for quite a while)
Hope to hear from you soon. Cheers.
Chin+Dian
Hi there!
My advice would be to keep trying to find a job in Australia. It may be difficult now as I hear the job market might be slowing down with the credit crunch.
If you can't find a job in Australia, all is not lost, do strongly consider coming to West Malaysia or KL to do your pupillage and to get admitted in West Malaysia. There will be the hurdle of passing the CLP which can be like a lottery. Unfortunately, the Common Bar Exam is still quite some time away from being implemented.
After completing your pupillage in West Malaysia and being Called to the Bar here, you can still then serve the extra 3 months in East Malaysia and then get Called over there.
You can still gain very valuable experience and exposure here in KL. Whether it is in dispute resolution or in corporate work, you can get a few years of experience under your belt and then try to then make it back in Australia. This is especially when the job market over there picks up again. It may be easier to secure a job there once you have a few years of work experience. I have had many friends securing jobs in Australia or in other foreign countries, even after 1-2 years of practice.
I hear what you are saying about the state of affairs here in Malaysia, with the state of the judiciary, the political circus of sorts, and the level of corruption and inefficiency. Even taking all of that into account, I have really enjoyed my years of practice here in KL. There are times of absolute frustration with the system, but I have tried to make the most out of it, and it really boils down to you and what you make out of the opportunities here.
If you have any more questions, feel free to ask, and I'll be glad to share my perspective on this.
Hi, that is a great autobiography. I am also an ex-PR with similar circumstances as yourself. I gave up my PR and left SG to study in the USA when i was 18. When i returned to SG, i was employed by a government-linked organization that previously had enormous clout and bargaining power over the MINDEF in SG. My EP was approved and I worked 3 years in the organization.
But late last year in 2007 I started to hear of NS-evading M'sian colleagues that were getting their work permit renewals rejected. Eventually when it came time to renew my EP, i was rejected as well. Now, after having worked here for 3 years, I have to leave to country to seek employment elsewhere.
I hope my case will be a warning to all the potential NS-evaders who somehow find their way to this blog. The gov't in SG tightens and relaxes its policies at its whim and fancy. What applies now may not be applicable 3 years later. If you give up your PR to evade NS, your future in SG is uncertain at best.
My younger brother served his NS and retained his PR. He plans to be a SG citizen one day, and so far things are going well for him. As for me, I think i'll be an old man before i stand any chance of residing in SG again.
Hi Ronin. I am sorry to hear of your situation. The other thing that I did not consider was that even if one secured an EP, there would be the issue of subsequent renewals and the discretion would lie completely in the hands of the Government.
I sometimes still do entertain some sliver of hope that if I were to secure a job in Singapore, that the Government may just allow the EP to slide through. But based on your experience, this does not appear to be possible.
Thank you for sharing your experience on this. All the best to you Ronin. It appears that there are a number of people who chance upon this entry based on the search hits, so hopefully our experiences will help the visitors.
Hey! I got to this site by searching something on Google, it's been quite informative reading about your experiences. I know I'm being quite silly asking you this, but based on your experiences I'm sure you can tell me something.
I used to be a PR until mid-November, when we cancelled my PR status because of NS. We sort of thought we wouldn't be able to back out of NS after the A levels, which was really stupid I know, (I'm 15 by the way) and we renounced it. Then we applied for a student's pass, but it got rejected 3 weeks later. Then we appealed, writing a letter (yes, it was SORT of like a sob story letter) about how my father has a medical condition and how I should stay here to support him (but it isn't bad, he can work and walk and do things normally and can be fixed with treatment) and I have yet to receive a result and I'm in India now. My mum and my sister are here with me and my father went there a few times to ask about the result but they kept saying they'll send the result soon. The last time he went they asked where I was and they said they'll send it by the end of this month. But I'm sort of settling down here and I don't want to go back. Gah. So what do you think, would the appeal work? Considering even a letter from the MP had no effect in your case, I doubt it will in mine. I don't really want it to anyway... Bleh.
Sounds like you are going through the same process that I was put through. It seems that the chances are slim that immigration will allow the appeal but you never know. Wait until the results are out. All the best!
The ironical thing is, it was actually Immigration/Ministry of Manpower that gave my dad the idea for me to renounce my PR. My dad had asked them whether I would need to serve my PR after 'A' levels and the department then told my dad that if I did not want to serve NS, I could always renounce my PR.
Hi Mabelina,
We renounce our son's pr at 15 yrs old as we were moving to Australia and he was going to continue his studies here. Am just curious as how yr appeal with student pass goes. Whether our son will return to spore to do his ns after his TEE at 18, or after his univ or non at all will depend on his choice. We however as parents may encourage him to serve as we do not want to burn his bridge at such a young age.
Ever heard of anyone who after renouncing PR are accepted back to do ns after their univ at 22 or 23 yrs of age.
Thanks
A concern mum
Hi Linda,
Okay I do realise this post is coming up a tad too late but well, I didn't find the need to return to this site for the last few months. No, I didn't get the student's pass and I am quite comfortably settled down in India (okay, as comfortably as I possibly can be!). The chances are slim that your son will get accepted back by the government if he's going to apply for a student's pass normally, but I'm quite uncertain about if he does NS in order to be worthy of claiming the said coveted pass. However as Leesh has mentioned in his blog post, the immigration did suggest to him to serve NS in order to get it so maybe they might hint the same to you. What I personally feel is that your son should simply stay put in Australia, I mean considering he'd save 2.5 years that way and the climate is better off than that in Singapore. (haha!)
You've probably given up on waiting for a reply from me so... Gah.
Hi Ryan
Have you tried appealing against the decision rejecting your PR application?
You definitely could speak to your father's local MP to obtain a letter in support. You could then tender that letter of support for your appeal as well.
I think your best chance is to try to speak to an officer in person, to explain that you are willing to serve your NS.
Would you consider serving NS, in order to secure an employment pass to work in Singapore? You could then at least stay in Singapore with your father/family.
Best of luck!
Wow that was a fast reply from you Leesh. I just got the rejection letter 2 days ago, so I have not had the chance to go down to ICA yet but am planning on going tomorrow with my father to find out how to appeal. Hopefully I will get to speak directly with my case officer.
As for your question on me serving NS, if they reinstate my PR I am willing to serve, after all it is a requirement that ex-SPRs and ex-SG citizens are liable for NS if they do get back their PRs.
Securing an employment pass now would be tough because most employers in my line (banking/finance) will only hire citizens and PRs and the current economic situation doesn't help my case at all.
All the best when speaking to the officer. In my case, having spoken to the officer upon receiving my rejection, they did advise me to appeal right away. You could also sound out the officer on the chances of you getting your PR back if you were to serve your NS. From my experience, the officer you speak to in person isn't the same officer who eventually makes the decision on your file.
I just hope that they at least make their decision quickly rather than letting it drag out for another 5 months or so.
So you are doing the bi-weekly trip in and out of Singapore to renew your social visit pass?
Hope you succeed in your appeal.
Well nowadays they give 30 days on the social visit pass each time. I have been commuting btw kl and sg the last few month except in april i went back to sydney for graduation.Thank goodness at least I get to stay with my grandparents in KL.
The officer I spoke to advised me to appeal asap with as many supporting documents as I can get ie. MP's letter and other reference letters. She couldn't tell me what are the chances but said it depends on the strength of my case as appeals are evaluated case-by-case basis.
Anyhow I expect the appeals process to be long and will look for a job in KL in the meantime cos I don't want to waste any more time.
My backup plan of course is like yours- to move back to KL permanently.
Cheers
Hi Leesh, I came to your website by Google. I'm in a similar situation, except that my wife and child are still in Singapore (we didn't know this rule about ex-PR not being able to return when we got married). All my appeals have been rejected. It was a very traumatic experience.
Have you had any luck for employment pass so far? Can I get in touch with you? by email? I just want to talk to someone with similar experience and to learn how to cope. For me, the worst feeling is regret and not being able to be with my family.
Hi there. I am so sorry to hear about your situation. To date, I have not tried to apply for an employment pass yet as I have not decided on whether to try to work back in Singapore.
I'd be happy to liaise with you via email. If you can, do leave your email address via a comment (I won't publish the comment so your email won't appear on my blog) and I'll drop you a line.
Hi Leesh,
sorry to hear about your predicament. Ever wondered if you can change this by marrying a Singaporean girl? Does such a marriage qualify you for a PR?
Just wondering.... =)
Hi Mabelina,
Yes, I have given up waiting for a reply from you. Somehow, I started to search this website again and voila! yr reply. thank you so much. I appreciate yr reply eventhough it is 10 months later. We're now in Australia and it has been ayear. yes, many have commented why we should worry about ns. If he can stay on and work in Australia, save the 2.5 yrs. Australia is a vast land of opportunity. Well, we will see. the final choice is still his. we take it one day at a time. I am still curious to know what is the cut off age for ns.
A concerned mum
just a note here. i am one of the ex-PR who commented above, recently re-applied for PR under my parent's sponsorship since i was under 21. the PR was rejected on grounds that i didn't do NS. Even when i appealed that i am willing to do NS, they still rejected the appeal.
It seems the govt has tightened their policy even more in the past few years, they will not give u back your PR even if you're willing to do NS. most likely, even employment pass applications will be rejected regardless if you're willing to do ns or not.
The whole idea is, no second chance, period. you only get one chance to do your NS and if you give up your PR, u may never get to live/work in singapore again. Hope I made myself clear, anyone who is considering giving up PR to avoid NS better be prepared to never live in sg again.
I am gave up my PR when I was 19 reason being CMPB took 10 months to process my NS posting. This effectively meant I would have wasted 2 1/2 years in NS and another 10 months while waiting. After re-nouncing my PR, I admitted to NUS and had my student pass granted. This was back in 1999. After graduation, I was admitted to Australia university for Postgrad studies and subsequently applied PR in australia. In 2005, I was sent to Singapore for training by an MNC. My application for a training visa was rejected. Appealed and rejected again. This was while i was in singapore. During that time, I was offered by another MNC a position in Singapore. The company applied for my EP and was rejected. After 2 appeals, the case officer asked me to approach CMPB for assistance. I was told by a CMPB officer "too bad to YOU ALL for not serving NS". After appealing, I recieved a letter stating that I have enjoyed the social-economic benefits during my PR status and have not fulfilled my NS obligations. I returned to Australia to continue my career path.
My point in writing this is that if you or your kids are planning to give up your PR before AFTER the age of 13, you must properly consider the possibilty of never able to work or reside in Singapore. I believe the government's stance on this will be tougher in years to come due to the heavy influx of new PR's into Singapore.
Hi Anon, thanks for sharing that story. Seems like we are about the same age.
I agree that it is likely that the government's stance on this will get tougher. There is increasing public outcry on the perception that PRs obtain all the benefits of citizenship with non of the sacrifices. Reading the Straits Times forum, not surprising to see readers stating that first generation PRs should also serve NS.
I am not questioning the right of the Singapore government to put in place certain policies regarding PR-ship. But wouldn't it be reasonable to ask that these policies be transparent? So for example, the policy can be that if you are a male second generation PR after 13, you will not be allowed to obtain a student pass/employment pass if you renounce your PR before you serve NS. Being transparent is better than having online forums and blogs pass the word round about what people think these policies are.
hello leesh,
correct me if I am wrong, but I think this policy about blacklisting ex-PR is only more recently implemented (like in the last 3-4 or even 5 years). I am in the same situation as all you. Gave up PR in 1997 for undergrad studies overseas and I even came back to SG to work in 2002 on an Employment Pass. Recently, I had an offer to return to SG to work but was blocked by the MOM.
I agree with you, Leesh, in that the procedures/outcome need to be transparent.
I feel frustrated because they are allowing foreign nationals on diploma (not degree) to enter Singapore and encourage them to apply for a PR BUT will not equally or better qualified individuals like us to work (we are not even asking for PR or CPF... just work/study).
hi leesh,
this is CocoaButter again. I'm sorry but can you pm me because there are a few things I want to ask you personally (hopefully you have some answers) and of course, if you have some qns for me, I will be more than happy to answer too.
I am not in a good situation right now because it is very messy.
Hi CocoaButter, there doesn't seem to be consistency in the implementation of the policy, so not sure how long it has been implemented for. Like I said, the main grouse will be the lack of transparency, but I guess the Government's stand is that they don't owe an explanation to anyone.
I understand your frustration, where other foreigners so easily obtain employment passes/long term social visit passes/etc. But on the other side of the coin, the Government has to ensure that PRs take their obligations seriously I guess. Hence, I would think transparency would be the key to dissuade potential PRs to taking PRship lightly as well as to dissuade PRs from renouncing their PRship.
I'd be glad to pm you, feel free to drop a comment with your email address (where I won't publish the comment). I am no expert in this area though, I am just one of many former PRs who have gone through this experience.
Hi Leesh, this is CocoaButter again. I found this one a website and this was spoken by DPM Teo Chee Hean back in 2006 (in a response to Melvin Tan... I think he is a pianist in the UK).
The website is: http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2006/jan/16jan06_nr/16jan06_speech.html
Pls note:
"Sir, PRs, who are liable for National Service, are like Singaporeans in many ways. Many of them studied alongside their Singaporean counterparts in our schools and they benefited from living in Singapore like Singaporeans. So, like Singaporeans, they are expected to play their part in defending Singapore and the fundamental NS principles of universality and equity would apply to them. After all, they have benefited from the security provided by the many batches of NSmen who served diligently before them. Unlike Singaporeans, such PRs can renounce their PR status without serving NS. This is fair for those PRs who have decided that they do not want to make Singapore their home.
But what about those who subsequently want to return? Would it be fair to allow them to do so unconditionally? After all, their initial action of renouncing their PR status to avoid serving National Service calls into question their commitment to Singapore. It would also not be fair to Singaporeans who have to serve their National Service. This is why we currently take into account, together with other factors, the fact that such ex-PRs have failed to serve National Service when they subsequently applied for a student pass or Work Pass to study or work in Singapore. And there is no automaticity for them to be able to be restored. Such ex-PRs who refuse to do NS should be considered in that light. "
seriously, if u don't want to serve ns, GET LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Has ANYONE here who has given up their PR in the past, successfully obtained an employment pass? Or has anyone heard of friend who have successful obtained employment pass?
Hi Leesh,
Good day, Maybe i am a bit late in replying your blog on the EX SPR matter, i am one of you all in all ways.
i was forced to left singapore in the case.
but hope to bring our communite together to discuss more on this issue.
hope that my idea is good
let me know your thoughts
@seejc
I obtained an EP in 2002 but I think the rules changed around 2005/2006. I am sure a lot of Singaporeans serving NS will hate us for sure but we are just asking to work in Singapore, not asking for our old PRs back. In any case, I think the chances for us to work in Singapore is very slim, we can visit and stay as visitor but not reside.
Hi, I am just like one of you guys... I can't even return to work in Singapore even though I have a PhD from a well known university in the USA. Like someone posted earlier, even MiniSTARs' sons have to go for NS.... who in the right frame of mind will let us through? I also heard from the grapevine that the SG govt even turned away some medical doctors that were eduated and trained in the UK. Can u believe that? It is a well known fact that SG is short on medical personnel and the govt will rather hire substandard ppl from SEA countries and keep ppl like us out.
Leesh, maybe it will be a good idea to have more discussion about this? As all of us have experienced, it is definitely a life changing experience/decision. Just trying to be helpful.
2009 end: PR school fee will be increase in 5 years time equal to ASEAN rate
2010: recently gov just slice of big part of medical subsidiary.
the point is PR is getting more. quota reached certain number that they are squeezing PRs to convert to citizen which i think most of us here will object strongly (including me)
I am 1st generation PR, so no issue but with 2 very young sons, am currently planning their path in SG. will take up long term pass since they are yet to join school... then will see if to put them in SG school or move out from SG. hard decision.
to apply PR for them is like a sin to me when i heard these sad story. yet to say convert citizen.
start from mid 2009, pr is really ... extremely hard to apply. one of my friend, single, income of S$4500/m rejected from PR application.
it is due to over intake of PR during economy blooming 2005-2008, and all these holders are back to their own country after the down turn, yet their PR is still valid, holding up the slot for new applicant.
not to mentioned about EP, S pass, work permit.... now even general workers need to take English exams.
i hope when the time comes, NS will be exempted, more foreign talent will be much happy to be Citizen.
i hope this Blog will continue with more new faces and share their though and previous "tries"
goos luck ( i book marked this page)
Hey guys, great to see so many of you dropping by this small blog to record down your comments. Keep 'em coming!
hey leesh, in my case, the offer of serving NS was not an option that was extended to me. Why do you think NS was offered to most of you all but not me? Also, as someone asked earlier, do you think marriage to a Singaporean girl will help? Lastly, do you think if the PAP were no longer the ruling party that this policy will change? Sorry to be asking so many questions at one go, but these are some questions that I have that no one seems to have an answer. Even a discussion may even help.
there may have a way out for those affordable:
1. 45 years old and above;
2. own a property / properties in Singapore worth at least S$500,000 (in total) for residential purposes and meet any one of the following financial requirements:
* have savings of at least S$400,000 parked in Singapore in any form of financial instruments based in Singapore, or
* show evidence of a monthly local income of at least S$7,000, or
* have a combined, savings and 5-year equivalent income of at least $400,000.
3. must be in good health.
4. have valid medical insurance in Singapore.
these are the long term stay visa.
http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=238&secid=171
marry a Singaporean girl:
may, or may not end our night mare, but the night mare will knock on your sons door.
first say you've married, then you are are eligible to apply for permanent residence, be cause to be citizen you must go through PR (that's for sure)
http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=151&secid=150
http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=132&secid=130
During PR application, you will face the drama again. may be for those above 40 will be relax with NS i am not sure but most of us here are 20+ to 30++.
actually NS is good for back up of our sons future. if they are not compatible with the job environment or too bad perform, they can sign on with army. however our clan here are mostly from Foreign Talent that with very promising future generation. that's the reason why they try to "retain" good breed.
some of the link above may provide general guide line to most of us.
Best Wish
To K&K,
thanks for your comments. That was fast. The problem that I think a lot of us face is that they won't issue us an Employment PAss (to work). I am assuming that most if not all of us have finished at least our undergrad/Bachelors. So we are in a situation where we know we are qualified and capable of performing at our employers but MinDef will block any attempt for us to return to Singapore. This is really mind boggling because we are not asking for PR or citizenship, just the permit to work. Besides, an Employment Pass is not really a permanent long term visa in the sense that anytime we quit/we get laid off, our employment pass terminates with it.
any thoughts about this leesh?
Hmmmm... thanks for the post... it seems like maybe MinDef will let us off after 40 years old? But we'll be already set in your careers by then. Maybe there won't be a need to return to Singapore anymore.
hey leesh, do you think there's an age limit beyond which the Sg Govt will no longer pursue this anymore?
to LiuDaDong
for EP application, my friend face 4 to 5 times rejected due, gievn excuse that this or that not completed, this and that not clarified and bla bla bla. the company helps to appeal but unsuccessful. the reason they gave at the end is that "there are still more Singaporean qualified for this job and need not Foreign Talent to fill up the job". in fact this is not true that the company has open the job interview and application for 6 months!
the things are Singapore policy is not transparent, so that they can change it any minutes suit to the situation, yet need not to enlighten public awareness. covering their back side and do whatever they want suit to the country need since it is not transparent. if the public try to make voice, they will give "ang pao" to silence the complain from the citizen.
the policy changes from time to time with suit to the economy and stability of politic. things will change if the ruling party face different crisis. not to elaborate more here.
For all of you hoping to marry a Singaporean girl and get a pass back into Singapore, please note that while marrying a Singapore man generally gets you a right to stay in Singapore, the converse is not true.
So not splashing cold water on you but please don't bet on that as a solution.
Also, while I do feel sympathetic for you guys who have had your EPs denied, please note that this is very very common and lawyers (or at least at the firms I've practised at) have generally warned mothers making enquiries about sons ditching PR to avoid NS that it is an open secret that the boy can forget about ever returning to Singapore.
This was something my PR friends at JC were also advised ... this was in 1994 ...
hi Annonymous (above), thank you so much for your answers. Do you know of a solution to our situation? I know this is the million dollar question, but if not let me rephrase it in another way... " Do you know of any successful cases? and what the applicants did? I understand some previous posts mentioned that they were successful, but I don't understand under what conditions though?
Thanks for even taking the time of post your response. I really appreciate your time, effort and response.
Hi anonymous (above), I was just thinking about it. Will the type of employment (private sector or public sector) and the position (what kind of job.... research vs engineering vs accounting...etc)matter when it comes to seeking Employment Pass?
I guess logically for the more general professions like accounting (correct me if I picked the wrong profession),etc, the govt can afford to be choosy (in the sense that if they don't pick us, they can easily hire someone from our SEA neighbours with just as good qualifications). But you can't really say that for a more specialized field like science research because the quality of the work is really different for graduates of different institutions.
Or is it more likely that we are "banned outright". Period...?
Anyways, just a thought.
LiuDaDong(I have to put my name here, otherwise, the blog site won't let me publish any of my comment)
Hi LiuDadong, my husband is banned from working in Singapore because of this PR issue. He gave up PR after junior college and cannot return to Singapore now. Appeals have not worked. Are you working in the US now? I will be most glad to chat with you to share the experiences, and maybe we can encourage each other. I hope not coming back to Singapore is not the end of the world for anyone.
- wife of an ex-PR
To annoymous wife of an ex-PR,
pls feel free to email me back at
liu.dadong768@gmail.com
If I can answer some of your qns, I will be more than happy to. I am still in the US right now because I cannot return to work in Singapore. Do you mind if I ask you if you are a Singaporean? and if your hubby is in the US also?
leesh, thanks for the blog. It allows ppl like us to voice out our conerns/questions,etc. What I find puzzling is that ppl that were sentenced to jail before (for e.g. Christopher Lee the husband of Fann wong) can still live and work in Singapore. In most 1st world countries, a jail sentence or a felony crime will almost always result in your immigration status being severely jeopardized.
I guess like Anonymous (above) mentioned to a certain extent the laws of Singapore are not very transparent so they can do whatever they feel like doing.
But for us at least give us some terms and conditions and not shut us out like that.
Anyways, I'm sorry if I sound like I am ranting and raving. I just wanted to vent out a little and this blog site is really good for that. =)
Continuation of my post 2/10/2010 01:34:00 PM
There is no hard and fast rule. Unfortunately, as all of you who have been on the wrong side of the PR thingee have found out, the crux is, if you are due to serve NS and you refuse to and leave, to put it mildly, you aren't allowed to backtrack on that decision to leave the country. I don't mean to be cruel but the idiom of water thrown out onto the ground can't be retrieved comes to mind.
We actually have filed petitions for people in Leesh's position but save for desperate pupils whom the firm in question really really likes, lawyers don't touch this issue with a 10 foot pole. Not because of money but because you can't win. Below is a recent example I have of how difficult it is:
Context - Not sure if this is well known outside the legal circle but the Law Ministry is trying to push the growth of arbitration. This is with the aim of us being the arbitration centre of the East etc. However, the breed is dying because of work load issues and simply because corporate lawyers make much more and get criticised by clients a lot less.
Our unfortunate pupil was seeking pupilage to become an arbitration lawyer a sadly dying but required breed. We put in quite a lot of applications but was told "TOUGH" when he tried to appeal against his rejection of an EP. Put the Ministry's business model for the legal sector against the fact that the number of lawyers has fallen to the extent our conservative Ministry is significantly increasing intake of students and allowing more foreign firms / lawyers in, I say it is safe to conclude that one's work sector is not going to help you. Not unless you are on the cusp of winning a Nobel price or anything like that and ARE WILLING TO DO NS and get someone very senior and important to help push your case.
The ones we heard got back in (which may or may not be the people you mentioned above) had to (a) serve NS (b) were very lucky / connected because someone quite high up (any old MP doesn't count) did a plea bargain for them and (c) were people who were very talented (I mean VERY) and who were going to be civil servants / the like.
I'm not giving you the answers you all want … but while I am not saying give up, offering to do NS is the bare minimum and even then, you need that something extra. The solution is not merely marrying a Singaporean girl or trying to get in on work ability. Also, please get a friend who is legally trained to help you raise questions / get things kicked off.
hanks Annonymous Attorney,
You have been very kind and informative on this blog. Looks like the road back to Singapore will be very steep, windy and rocky. Not many will make it back, But alas, not making it back is not the end of the world.
through my line of work, I have seen cases where truly even specialist medical doctors throw up their hands and say there nothing else to be done. Just a few days ago, I saw this sad case where the patient was supposed to take Temodar (http://www.drugstore.com/qxn00085125201_333181_sespider/temodar/temodar.htm) but could not afford to because each pill was $400. Each pill. The crying between the sick parent and their children just left me with this feeling of emptiness because I felt their pain and their choice was simply die now (and leave the money for their children) or die later ($50,000 poorer). In any case, I just wanted to encourage the bloggers coming here to read about our predicament. Like leesh said, there is a whole world out that. I think even in the near future, it seems likely that this policy will get even worse because there will be so many other foreigners in Singapore that can easily take our places (most professions). So the govt can pick and choose what who they feel like picking. In any case, the govt likes citizens/residents that are orderly, patient and willing to listen to their instructions. We (as a group) have bucked the trend and because we are the 1st group of 2nd generation (assuming most of us are born late 70s,80s or even early nineties) to pose this problem to the govt, I am pretty sure we will be "hung to dry" in clear view of the other citizens as a deterrent.
Additionally, to digress a little, I once had a conversation with an American friend who is working in Singapore right now. He was offered EP AND PR when he collected his EP stamp in his passport. He jokingly (or sarcastically) said, "Your govt is so hard up for people to stay in this country that they offered me PR even before my 1st day of work."
I replied, "Good for you, you must be very attractive to my govt." He then proceeded to say that he doesn't view his PR status with much happiness because he wanted to "wear it like a badge" to show to others that he is somewhat of a global traveller and trekker.
I then said, "Don't regret your decision later..." He said he couldn't care less about renouncing his PR later because he said, "your govt is like the Libyan govt!"
I was like, "Huh? What do you mean? Libya...Africa?"
He said,"Yes, you heard me... Libya... because their govt forces even young boys to bear arms in the name of fighting against guerillas."
I said, "yeah, in a slight sense, but the biggest difference is that there is clear and eminent danger in Libya even today, even right now....There is none of those in Singapore!" I was trying to put up a defence to his nonsensical comparison.
He then chided me and said, "Your govt expect everyone to go through the same kind of obstacles, training and schooling, and at the end of it, every single male born in this country will have the same kind of experience and hence creativity will be greatly diminished!"
I then replied, "Well, there is good and bad right? We don't have a big population like the US so we have to filter out the really talented people and start grooming them at a young age..."
"But that's against basic human rights because you cannot force a human being to do what he doesn't want to do!" He convincingly said.
Sensing that this was getting no where and he opened a can of worms with a "human rights issue". I asked him, "Okay, what about you then? What if the US were to go to war with Iran and President Obama used up almost all of his troops including reserves. The Selective Service is called upon and a mandatory draft like 'Nam' (vietnam in 1960/70s) is activated. Will you as a patriotic American answer your country's call to bear arms?"
He said, "No!" I asked him why not?
"Because my father avoided the draft by going on to study for his dentistry degree. He had no interest in dentistry but he begged and begged the Dean and managed to convince the army that by studying dentistry for 4 years and then later on if needed he can contribute better to the nation." His father's whole plan was to try to drag out his schooling time as much as possible so by the time he is ready to enlist, the war may be over. His plan worked.
I was speechless....his father did not answer his nation's call for help and yet today, he still enjoys all the benefits of a citizen. What contrasting fortunes as compared to ours!
Anyways Happy CNY guys! All the best.
Leesh drop in a comment or two if you can... this place seems awfully quiet if you don't write some stuff. =)
Hi Liu, thanks for the email address, I have emailed you. Also thanks to everyone who gave advice. Though I understand this place is a good avenue to bring similar people together, but Internet is open to every one. Even the particular ministry may be reading this. We all know one of the government's objective is deterrence, and I'm not willing to let them win. Immature as I may sound, I can't think of any other ways except to make our discussions more private.
If such a community of ex-PRs does exit, I hope there will be a more private (less exposed to government scrutiny) way to communicate. Maybe we can work towards that?
- wife of ex-PR
hi guys.
i am still trying to work my way into singapore again.
but i think chance are small...
i tried application of PR, EP, Work permit
yet to try long term visit pass.
haha any idea on it?
i like liu's idea..
On Monday Minister of National Defense, Chen Chao-ming, announced that Taiwan's military will become an all-volunteer force within five years. Speaking to a military committee under the Legislative Yuan, Minster Chen explained that the process would commence on 2011 and by 2014 all divisions of the R.O.C. Armed Forces will be filled with career soldiers instead of conscripts. In the future, local men will only be required to serve four months of basic military training.
A decade or two ago many men could look forward to a military term of at least two years. The inductees were first separated into “A” and “B” groups depending on physical strength and other factors. Then lots were drawn to determine the length and location of military service. Some unlucky conscripts drew terms as long as three years in places such as the front-line island of Matsu. Over the years the length of conscription has been reduced to where today, a young man will generally only have to serve a one-year term. We salute the sacrifice of veterans — conscripts and volunteers — who have kept Taiwan safe over the decades. These brave men and women suffered immense physical and mental pressures so that their fellow citizens could remain free. Truly, without their heroism, Taiwan could have long ago been assimilated into communist China.
But we must also agree with Minister Chen that the time has come to repeal conscription. Quite simply, unless a threat is direct and imminent, conscription during peacetime is not a viable economic policy. Even with a full two years of service, most conscripts lack the training to be effective wartime soldiers.
Aside from economic considerations there is also a humanitarian issue. The mostly young men who are conscripted have generally just finished high school or college and instead of continuing the momentum of youth, are forced to delay their careers, segregated from society and subjected to the rigors of military life. Some of these young people do not adapt well and almost every year there are stories of suicides due to depression over military service. Filling the ranks of the Armed Forces with professionals can only improve the R.O.C's capacity to respond effectively to any threat. President Ma's policies have brought a degree of detente with arch-nemesis China and are certainly a factor in the military's decision. The time has come for Taiwan to move into a new, 21st century military posture and ending conscription is a great first step
Hi all. Glad to see a buzz of activity on this post of mine, with a number of readers helping out other visitors.
I noticed that this post was linked to a topic at the Singapore Expats Forum: http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic61423.html
There is a condensed guide at that forum on some FAQs on NS issues, do check it out at: http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic61423.html
Hey leesh, I am going to pose this qn to you (and to whoever) feels like answering.... (1)In light of Taiwan doing away with National Service (see above post), do you see that happening to Singapore also?
(2)If the ruling party is no longer in control of Singapore, do you think things could change too?
I know it is very hard to look into our crystal balls and try to foretell the future (if we could, we wouldn't have to blog here right? hahha), but just for discussion sake, do you think that will change? Some changes are very swift and unexpected much like how the Japan political scene changed with the ascent of the LDP into power or even a "coloured" person as Mr President of the USA.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L8VXDaqtmA&feature=related
About an Angmoh PR not serving NS. This is fictitious of course.
Lui,
i guess "(2)If the ruling party is no longer in control" will be the best hope and wish for us that it has highier % to change the future.
has anyone considered raising this issue at the next general elections? seems to me that the current policy is very incompatible with increasing economic competition from hong kong, china, india etc. hong kong has always leading ahead, and once china's quality of living improves to the same level as sg's, even prcs would rather stay in china than go to sg.
i understand that defence is a very impt consideration to sgp, but so is (and increasingly so is) its economic competitiveness. there are so many other more sensible ways of making this work - e.g. grant ex-prs work permits based on merits but not prs/citizenship. these ex-prs are, after all, pple who have gone out of sg at their own expense to acquire valuable expertise and experience AND had spent time growing up in sg. they are therefore more likely to stay and contribute in sg long-term as compared to other FTs. on the other hand, such a policy would still deter existing prs - if they gave it up, they wouldn't be able to regain their pr/citizenship.
this is only ONE suggestion out of many possible ones that make more economic sense and yet still maintain fairness... i think this is very worth raising at the elections, or with the new (and hopefully more open-minded) generation of sg leaders that will rise up after the election.
and also, if the wife is singaporean, she would presumably follow her husband overseas if he can't get a work permit. isn't sg then also effectively chasing away one of its own citizens?
pushforchange, slight delay there on my part in approving the comments you left.
Thanks for your thoughts. Unfortunately, from what I can gather from the media, there seems to be a backlash of sorts against FTs, foreigners who become PRs, and the ease at which PRship is given out. So continue to expect rules and policies to be tightened.
thanks leesh. may be a fine line to draw here - but i think we're not arguing against the tightening of general immigration rules. rather, we're saying that ex-prs shld be treated like any other foreigner (at least when applying for EP), which will, naturally, be subject to the prevailing immigration rules at that time (which may become stricter).
and anyway, no matter how much pple complain about FTs, i don't think singapore can do without them, given its very low birth rate and increasing economic competition (as mentioned in my previous post). i think the govt is well aware of this.
i know all this may be hopeless, but i think it's better to try than to give up from the start! especially for anyone who really do want to go back to sgp (such as those with spouses/families still in singapore). and if anyone wants to try, i think the upcoming general elections will be an opportune time!
Taken from another website:
2 case studies of our same scenario... I am just puzzled/surprised as to why the 2nd case had a successful EP application.... Isn't that strange?
--------------------------------------
Case 1: Father became PR, then citizen and bought landed property.
Son stayed with him, studied in Singapore and then left overseas for further studies. He returned with 1st class honours double degrees from a top university.
Application for EP for a S4.5K job offer was rejected. Priority should be given to citizens or PRs.
Application for PR rejected because of no job. Offer to do NS was dismissed.
All his father’s strong contacts/influence failed.
Honestly, who wants to be accused of undermining the laws and sabotaging internal security? Why is NS mandatory? Remember what happened to wealthy Kuwait with its high expat population who ran away when Iraq attacked?
His permission to remain in Singapore has expired after age 21.
He found a job outside Singapore, the equivalence of S1.2K! No choice.
Case 2: Guy got EP for pilot cadet. When he was FO he applied for PR. His background check revealed that he has once declined offer of PR, so new application for PR denied. Present EP cancelled. He has to leave Singapore with a huge bond to repay for his training.
Singapore likes to keep such policies non-transparent so that they can allow for 'exceptions' when Important People request favours for their friends or relatives.
Some have been asking if it helps if you are highly skilled or marry a Singaporean woman. A recent case I've heard of suggests these two factors don't help much. A Malaysian who is married to a Singaporean woman, who had given up his PR for the same reasons many people here have, was offered a faculty position in one of the local universities. Despite being married to a Singaporean and the relatively high skill requirements of his job, he failed to get an employment pass.
Hi Anon: Thanks for sharing. I too have a recent example to share. I know of a former PR who couldn't return to Singapore for a long time. He is also highly qualified with a lot of experience in investment banking.
He recently married my Singaporean friend and now, he has been given back his PR and he is in Singapore. And it has been left a bit vague as to whether he will still be called up for NS (he's around 30-32 right now I think).
So there is a general policy but seems like exceptions are still made.
I'm surprised that you didn't know that second-generation PRs who give up their PR status without serving NS would be blacklisted. This rule has been around for many years (at least since the 90s) and is widely known. My friends who gave up their PR upon being called up (in the mid 90's) were clearly warned of the possible consequences when they went to Immigration to give up their PR status.
Hi there, it is very helpful of you to state the current situations and requirements to enter Spore.
I am a student who is currently studying for a UK TRANSFER DEGREE PROGRAMME(1+2/2+1). I heard that Spore doesn't recognise such degree. Is this true? What alternative route can I get in order to get into the legal field of Spore?
Jeff
Hi Fox, thanks for dropping a comment. Unfortunately, such consequences weren't made known to me a. I don't fault the existence of such a policy but still wasn't pleasant to go through the dragging out of my student pass application (with an appeal application after that) if there was such a clear policy of 'blacklisting' already in place.
Anon: The answer to your query can be found on the Ministry of Law website over here. While your degree is not recognised, it is possible for you to apply to MinLaw for exemptions. I am writing a blog post to cover some of these issues, so do check back here.
I know of someone who gave up his PR at 16 1/2, got a student pass instead and managed to finish his A-levels but that was in the late 90s. He later went to study medicine at NUS and served out his bond in the public health sector. So, he wasn't really penalized for giving up his PR but maybe that's only because he is a doctor. As far as I know, he is still employed as a doctor in Singapore.
hi leesh, 2nd generation not serving NS having serious consequences is commonly known. In fact the Enlistment Act states that:
NATIONAL SERVICE LIABILITY
Under the Enlistment Act, all male Singapore Citizens and Permanent Residents (PRs) are liable ot register for National Service (NS) upon reaching 161/2 years old. They are required to serve 2 years of full-time NS at 18 years old, followed by 40 days of Operationally Ready National Service per year till the age of 50 years (for officers) or 40 years (for other ranks).
Main applicants who are granted PR status under the first generation Professionals, Technical Personnel and Skilled Workesr Scheme or the Investor Scheme are exempted from NS. Male children, who are granted PR status under their parents' sponsorship, are liable for NS upon reaching 161/2 years old.
NS-liable PRs are expected to serve NS. Should they renounce or lose their PR status without serving or completing full-time NS, this would have an adverse impact on any application by them in the future to work or study in Singapore.
Male ex-Singapore Citizens and ex-Singapore Permanent Residents who are granted Singapore PR status are liable to be called up for NS regardless of the type of PR status they are granted. For further enquiries, please write to :-
Central Manpower Base
3 Depot Road, #03-07
Singapore 109680
Contact no(s): 1800-367-6767(local) or 65-6567-6767 (overseas)
Email : contact@ns.sg
In any case, you cannot really say that because you were not "aware" or were "not informed" of the consequences of such a decision that you should be off the hook.
So similarly, can I say that I wasn't aware of the grave consequences of drug trafficking in Malaysia or Singapore and then plead for leniency in the aftermath?
Hi Anon
Thanks for sharing. As made clear in my posting and in my comments, I do not fault such a policy and whether it was made clear beforehand or not. The point was more on the process being dragged out, and me being asked to appeal, and then it being dragged on further. If there really was a clear black-and-white policy (which judging from some comments, doesn't seem to be applied equally across the board), then straight out reject me and then I would have had time to sort out my affairs.
Which section or provision of the Enlistment Act did you quote from? I tried to look for it. I know I've read that passage off the ICA website before, which is a recent passage I think.
with the election due in the next 12 months, let's hope there can potentially be new changes soon. Why do ppl that left SG want to come back anyways? The old sg is long gone. The new sg has high prices for everything. The grass looks greener on the other side but it may not necessarily be that green.....
apprecate what you have and move on...
merry x'mas and happy new year
Hi Leesh,
Your blog is "featured" by a forumer Grey Hippo at New Temasek Review today. I understand the disruption of NS on career and studies. Just to let you know Singapore is getting worse under this present Govt.
All the best!
1st gen Spore PR
Please do update us when you are called to the Singapore Bar! That will show to everyone there is a good loophole for NS evaders to avoid.
So why be a Singaporean then? All be PRs better!
Why should I even spend a cent of my tax money on you?
Please give me a valid reason.
If Singapore is just a university, then you can go ahead and pay.
However, I think your grades are too low to compete with others, that's why you come back.
I guess its impt for a lot of PRs to know they are cheap. Which is why we bring you guys in here. Be grateful you managed to secure a SG PR status instead of having only the cheap malaysian bloodlines and passport.
Seems like the same "feature" was flooded across multiple forums.
leesh, as a personal note, maybe it's time you take off this blog entry, it's gathering too much unwanted publicity for your own good.
Why do you want to come to Singapore when Singaporeans are trying to emigrate?
Singapore's parents, parents of our generation who are mostly poor and less educated have, (or public paid money) not totally comparable but up to a certain extent comparable to any citizen for PR's son and daughter's education, homes, medical,etc since very young age.
Raising a child is not cheap here to any parents or the government. Since government chips in to pay for the child's everything (although government pays a lot lesser money now), every Singaporeans expect this PR child too chip in 2.5 yrs (now 2 yrs) of their life in NS or best of all convert to be one of us.
If the PR child, upon reaching 16-18, decided to give up their PR to escape NS, this shows a lot about this person’s sense of belonging.
Like me myself, every Singaporean or PRs never like NS. However, when we have a stake in Singapore, citizens are willing to sacrifice.
Last 5-10 years, thousands and thousands of foreign workers in the name of foreign talent flood this tiny island. it is still on going.
Price of everything on this island suddenly increases rapidly. Has demand out strip supply? Where goods are scares, price goes up! This is common sense. This happens regardless you are locals or not.
I have been questioning myself; why am I paying more for these Fts’ arrival? Probably many others have been asking themselves the same question a more important question; Do Singaporeans still have a stake in this country?
Like many of my friends, many feels that wage has been driven down by foreigner badly while prices of everything go up due to inflation. Housing has been increasingly unaffordable while with the dip in the wages and inflation creeps up, Singaporeans has to fork out more and more money for the same basket of goods.
Pro FT’s policy is an obvious not a good policy to Singaporean, to me. I would not buy any reason judging from what is happening now.
And again, do Singaporeans still have a stake in the country? Has this open door policy making Singaporeans increasingly better off or worse off?
If you ask me if CIA decision of you not able to get an EP or a PR for a second chance is right, I would say it is an obvious right decision.
If CIA would grant you EP or PR, Singapore as a nation, with a diminishing identity (or identity crisis) has proof to dip to a new low. Not only me but many others of my fellow Singaporeans will soon be convinced that migrate will be the best if there is a chance.
Before you start pointing finger, ask yourself what Singapore to you really is. It is your country or just merely a hotel?
Thanks for the blog posts detailing the experience and also your current process at attempting to gain admission to the Singaporean Bar.
Malaysian currently reading Law with another degree, Family renounced PR status more than 10 years ago. Was too young to understand the implications, and unfortunately, I would think that my parents were unaware of this being one of the consequences of doing so.
Before reading your posts, working in Singapore (a career relating to my other degree, not Law) was one of the options that I had in mind. I'm not too sure of that now. Would have to now re-evaluate my options and plan accordingly.
Would have never found out of such complications had I not came across your posts. So once again, thank you and please ignore the trolls, people like me and many others would have found your posts incredibly helpful.
By the way, I'm a former attachment student at your firm.
Whoever this blogger is, my advice to you is please do not step into my country ever again.
I have served my NS obligations and my blood always boils when I see massive influx of foreigners trying to suck it dry (be it resources or jobs)
What the hell am I serving my country for??!
Hello your blog is interesting. Will u try again if Singapore reject you this time?
Keep up your effort and inform us of the good news. Cheers!
This is called you wanting to have your cake and eat it. So what if all of you out there are highly qualified for the jobs that are available? If you go to your parents and tell them you are going to disown them do you expect to get any form of inheritance? All the complaints of not getting SPR is just because you are not entitled to doing the same job with the same high pay back home as compared to Singapore. The word Resident doesn't even come into the picture. How disgusting. It is different if you are a "new" foreigner who has not turned down the Singapore government when being called. But those who are bitching here, you have. All you highly educated people only wants to have your cake and eat it. So only foreigners can go to a prestigious University and not a Singapore citizen? What hubris to expect waiver of treatment just because you are the holder of a prestigious University's degree.
For a full context of the discussion of this post, one has to look at the article over at Temasek Review, then there was a post up at Delphi Forums and there is also an appearance in the comments section of the Straits Times.
Thanks for the words of support to those who commented here. I've also taken note of the other views posted here.
Oh please leecher.
You want the best of everything to yourself, and, not playing a duty of a citizen?
Get real and move on. Singapore does not welcome leechers and leeching PRs.
You are just like a pampered kid crying over spilled milk ... willing to serve NS now, is not for the country - as a citizen, but, more like you want to do it for your own bloody self.
And for those whom migrated elsewhere from your native country... you are such a selfish loser and do not mind being a second grade citizen somewhere. Before you took you last breath, i wonder would you regret of leaving this world in a place which is not in truth your own.
I have nothing against you. Everyone wants to have the best for themselves. If I can, I too don't want to serve 2.5 years of NS and 18 years to reservist duties.
However can I request you reveal the name of the member of parliament who wrote a letter of appeal for you. Singapore MPs are suppose to serve Singaporeans, not foreigners!
Thank you.
I'm a Singaporean and I'm ashamed to see the low-blows which some of my fellow countrymen have dealt. These group of Singaporeans are too myopic to see how we can and have enjoyed tangible and intangible benefits from the presence of hardworking, tax-paying, law-abiding foreigners.
This is certainly a complex issue and one cannot base the argument simply on whether or not NS was served. One should consider the basis of government policy and the various laws which have been enacted to achieve parity between the tiers of citizens/residents. (Or how about considering the fact that Singaporean women don't serve NS - are the men more deserving of their citizenship then?)
Good on you for trying. If your application for PR/work permit is approved, then I would say that the body approving it must have found something desirable to make such a decision. Those who are dissatisfied with the decision should take it up with the approving body and not the applicant.
Best of luck!
Hi Leesh
A small piece of good news
Parliament has passed amendments to the Legal Profession Bill on Monday (14 Feb 2011), according to a report in Channel News Asia.
Of significance among the changes would be provision for the introduction of the Foreign Practitioner Certificate to allow more foreign lawyers to practise commercial areas of Singapore law.
Please keep us updated on your immigration application outcome. Thanks
To my northern neighbours, a gentle reminder to you that the bloody anti-chinese riots is not a closed chapter. If and when it happens again, you can expect the same orgy of rape, plunder and murder. Do you expect our NSmen to respond to you and your family's pathetic screams for help ? The asnwer is a resounding NO. No S'porean is so daft as to risk even a single hair to help you. If you want help, you'll have to help yourself first. Taking up PR or citizenship here, there are certain obligations that you are expected to fulfill, and that includes NS. If you want to be special and skip NS, then be prepared to suffer the consequences.
As Malaysians, you are here because SG gave you a chance in life that your own country and government had denied you. If you do find so many faults with SG, you are free to pack up and leave for whatever is a better place for you. No S'porean is going to go down on his knees and beg you to stay. Don't complain again that you are already contributing through taxes coz it's too tiring for my ears. You are not the only one, everyone here pays taxes and every S'porean serves his NS duty too.
Don't want to serve NS becoz you think it's a waste of time.
Yet you want to have the opportunity to come back to work and enjoy equal benefits after dropping your PR. Such exploitative and selfish attitude is beyond deplorable.
Quote : "I'm a Singaporean and I'm ashamed to see the low-blows which some of my fellow countrymen have dealt. These group of Singaporeans are too myopic to see how we can and have enjoyed tangible and intangible benefits from the presence of hardworking, tax-paying, law-abiding foreigners."
We S'poreans are deeply ashamed of this alleged S'porean (could be an imposter)who made the above comment. Please note that his view does not represent mainstream S'porean opinion. S'poreans also worked damn hard, pay plenty of taxes and are extremely law-abiding people. Why you Malaysians and S'poreans have a chance to do all that is because of the sacrifices made by all NS men. Without the stability and security umbrella provided by the SAF & our NS men, there will be no foreign investments, no jobs, no chance for you to come here to make a living and pay your taxes. So if you are really serious about sinking your roots here and want to protect your hard-earned assets, start doing your part now in the defence and security of S'pore.
Anyone with a brain will be able so see that SG has in recent years refocused its traditional source of PR from M'sia to China & India. SG govt & S'poreans are not that daft to not realize that many M'sian PRs dodge their NS obligations. The switch to China & India is your own doing which is now adversely affecting the PR-aspiring M'sians who are serious about making SG their home and to serve their NS. They are being overlooked all because of your parasite and selfish behaviours. SG gov is highly sensitive to voter sentiments esp with regards to immigration. The tightening in recent times of PR rules on Chinese and Indian nationals are in part heavily influenced by sentiments voiced by S'pore voters. You can rest assured that we S'pore voters will continue to always give our feedback and exercise our voting rights to ensure that only those truly worthy ones (ie. not those who drop PR to evade NS) are welcomed to our shores and make S'pore home.
@Pamelin: BLAH BLAH BLAH RAGE RAGE RAGE.
quote "You can rest assured that we S'pore voters will continue to always give our feedback and exercise our voting rights "
What a bunch of baloney.... What voting rights do you have in Singapore? The GEs is coming, go ahead and cast your votes.... what a joke!
Ppl like you (Pamelin) are just blowing smoke all over the place. Like the saying goes, "Empty vessels make the most noise!"
Just a warning to those M'sians who think that just becoz they are "highly qualified" they would have the privelege of getting around the PR policy. Even the most talented S'poreans have to serve out their NS obligations. In Israel, professors fight alongside low-skilled workers. That's why the State of Israel continues to survive and exist. Likewise for S'pore.
To all PR-aspiring M'sians, before you make the all important decision to apply for SG PR, you need to understand that applying for SG PR is very different from, say, Aussie or NZ PR. It's because SG is very unique in its geopolitical environment. SG is situated in a highly strategic but volatile location. Being a Chinese-dominated and controlled tiny island state without any strategic depth or natural resources, it is constantly under threat by its much larger Malay-dominated neighbours.
For this reason, don't be under any illusion that by coming here, you have left M'sia and all the reasons that prompted you to pack your bags and leave. Even though you are in Singapore, you still remain under the shadows of M'sia. While SG cannot move out of M'sia's shadows, it possesses the means to deter and prevent M'sia from embarking on any kind of military adventure against S'pore. That is precisely why your Dr Mahatir and other politicians could only bark like a toothless dog at S'pore from a safe distance.
This M'sian impotence in being unable to force S'pore's hands in anything is due to the presence of the SAF, a fact fully understood and acknowledged by military and political analysts and observers. S'pore owes much of its ability to thrive and succeed and to transform itself into the success story it is today to the SAF and the sacrifices of all the NSmen who served in it.
Only by understanding the above, will you understand why S'pore is so strict about its PR policies and why S'poreans despise those who take SG PR for granted. As a SG PR, if you want to truly move out of the clutches of the Malay ultras, the muslim radicals ie. the very people who forced you to abandon M'sia, serve your NS and be trained and equipped to take on these people should they one day become mad enough to think they can try their luck on SG. This not entirely impossible scenario underpins the gravity that the SAF accords to its training and the heavy investments in arming S'pore to the teeth.
What is yours is not yours if you cannot defend and protect it. So, think very carefully - do you want to pursue your life where equality and meritocracy prevails, to protect your loved ones and hard-earned assets ? If your answer is yes, then be part of the Force, serve your NS and you'll be fully accepted as a part of S'pore.
[Quote : What a bunch of baloney.... What voting rights do you have in Singapore? The GEs is coming, go ahead and cast your votes.... what a joke!
Ppl like you (Pamelin) are just blowing smoke all over the place. Like the saying goes, "Empty vessels make the most noise!"]
It is a fact that the SG govt has in recent times taken a harder stance re the import of foreign workers; their numbers have fallen drastically. One of the measures taken is to increase the FW levies.
In my company alone, quite a few of my colleagues from India have had their work permit renewal rejected. Likewise, new work permit applications have been rejected. This took those foreigners affected and the HR by surprise. It is unprecedented. Why this sudden turn around ? Because the government have their ears peeled to their ground and are acutely conscious of the swelling discontentment against foreign worker policies. To get a feel of these anti-foreigner sentiments, just visit the Straits Times Discussion Board and look under threads regarding foreign workers and PRs. The government is reacting to these sentiments because the GE is just around the corner. Who is blowing smoke ? Read and decide for yourself.
The govt's response to the groundswell of public sentiment against the FW & PR policies & practices is what @pamelin meant by "voters exercising their voting rights".
Qoute "THREE brothers, born to a Norwegian father and Singaporean mother, want to give up their Singapore citizenship.
But the Ministry of Defence has said no. Not until they do their national service"
This is another recent example of the government playing hardball with NS defaulters. Read to find out more http://ns-singapore.blogspot.com/2010/05/give-up-citizenship-brothers-must-do-ns.html
"I wish to bring to authorities' attention, the many "rich" kids that r currently overseas. They were sent by their "rich" parents to avoid NS (Some blatantly left the country after receiving the NS letter.)"
Taken from : http://blog.thestar.com.my/permalink.asp?id=18054
Want to skip NS in their own country Malaysia, come to Singapore also scheme to avoid NS.
Speaks volumes of the character & nature of this bunch of Malaysians.
Singapore's Deputy PM & Minister of Defence Teo Chee Hean said this to the House of Parliament once :
'Who will shed a tear for Singapore if there is no Singapore for such people to return to, because the institution of National Service has been undermined?'
He's comment underscores the importance of NS to S'pore and why S'pore takes a firm stand against those who avoid or default on their NS obligations.
I quote, from an entry taken from this very blog :
[I still don't understand why even after 50 years of independence still there Malaysian that can't speaks Malay language properly or refuse to accept and honour Malay language. Wheres at the same time speaks their mother language arrogantly in public without thinking of other race sensitivity.....Malays has been accepting Chinese & Indians...they'll be only one main language Bahasa Melayu, Malay Sultan and Agama Islam as the official religion.
That is Malaysia. Our grand fathers has created it that way. We do not want to touch your sensitivity so please do not touch ours...I know for sure majority of Malays have a similar feelings as mine.]
The threatening undertone of the message is too obvious to be dismissed or ignored. So too is the race of the person who wrote it.
The message stands as a stark reminder that, as another contributor put it, the bloody anti-chinese riots is not a closed chapter.
M'sian Chinese are perpetually under "siege", a prime target of violence by the Malays. The violence can be ignited internally, its form ranging from ugly anti-Chinese demonstrations to full-scale race-motivated riots with Malays baying for Chinese blood.
Or, the trigger point can be a military conflict between M'sia & S'pore which, inevitably, will take on a racial dimension and escalate quickly into a racial war between Chinese & Malay. In such a scenario, M'sian Chinese will face the wrath and fury of their Malay "brothers" as they look to annihilate anything and everything that is Chinese.
For doubters, let me share with you two near misses (Cont'd Part 2)
(Part 2)
For doubters, let me share with you two near misses :
Nov 1986
Then Israeli President Chaim Herzog's official visit to S'pore sparked off massive ugly anti-S'pore demonstrations which at many times threatened to boil over. I was then serving my NS in an infantry unit. For 4 long weeks, during and immediately after the demonstrations, SAF servicemen from various key combat units were confined to barracks and put on a total war footing. Without revealing too much, suffice it to say that some of the most potent SAF "hardware" were deployed and pointed in a northerly direction.
Aug 1991
On the eve of S'pore's National Day, M'sian & Indo airborne troops conducted a joint exercise in, of all places, Kota Tinggi, Johore, which is right at S'pore's footseps. In an unprecedented massive response to such a deliberately provocative act, the SAF mobilised an entire combined-arms division, complete with integrated infantry, armoured, artillery and other combat elements, all armed and primed for action if some M'sian or Indo paratrooper were to be 'accidentally' blown over to S'pore.
Be it a M'sia-S'pore military conflict or widespread anti-Chinese violence that will unavoidably spill over to S'pore, if and when it happens, would you want to cower in fear when your Malay 'brothers' come knocking on your door and wait for the inevitable, or stand up and take the fight to the aggressors, and protect and defend everthing that are close to your heart.
Your ability to fight and protect yourself and your family lies with the SAF whose military doctrine, training, weapons and strategy have been built, designed and constantly refined for action in and with M'sia.
I hope my message gives PR-aspiring & PR M'sian Chinese a sense of purpose of what NS is all about so that they are in a better position to make a more informed decision as to renounce PR and skip NS or not.
You have for some reason associated doing NS with loyalty to this country. There are many people who have done NS but have refused to take citizenship. In your mind which is you think is indicates a desire to be associated with a country.
Not people are not aware that there is no such thing as volunteer NS.
There was a consequence and he had to do it rather than face the consequence. He is not the only one. There are many other nationalities such as americans, norwegians, finnish etc who have done their NS to retain their PR status or would like to work here.
Years ago, I was on an interview panel and interestingly an ACS alumnus hinted why he felt for Singapore by mentioning that he voluntered for NS. I asked him what was the consequence if he did not volunteer for NS. Not only his jaw dropped but those of 3 other interview panel members. He then admitted that he did it to retain his PR and to be with his mum and dad. After the conclusion of the interview sessions, all three members asked me to fill them in. I told them that NS is a not charity and why would someone not take up citizenship yet do NS. When I told them that someone who is not eligibile for citizenship cannot do NS even if he paid the Govt, it then made sense. Mind you the 3 were senior civil servants and they too had no clue.
Here is another tale. Over the decades there have been ex-PRs in their 20s and 30s requesting to take up option of doing NS to regain their PR or to take up citizenship. The desire to move back and in some cases to eventually take up better career propects are just too strong. As a rule it is a straight rejection. There is no re-offers.
Hi,
Here's my case:
back in 2002, I was a 2nd gen 13 year old PR sponsored thru my parents. But we emigrated to canada and renounced our PR status legally.
We then moved to the UK soon afterwards and gained UK nationality.
I recently got a job offer from a french firm in SG. I am now 23 applying for an EP.
What do you think of my chances?
Hi,
Here is the situation.
1) My parents came to Singapore and gained PR status and applied one for me too.
2) My parents renounced their PR, along with mine and left in 2002 to emigrate to Canada. I was 13 years old.
3) Since then, we moved to the UK and gained british nationality.
4) I recently got a job offer from a french company in Singapore, who are applying for my Employment Pass, which will take up to 2 months. I am now 23 years old.
Will there be any employment pass issues in returning ex-PRs who did not serve NS (as my parents renounced my PR status when I was at a young age)?
Would like your good advice on these matters.
Thank you
Ah, I'm currently facing this situation myself and it is kind of depressing really to find out that I might never be able to work in SG again. Oh well, I reckon I should take the bar in UK first to be safe. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
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